The Missing 411 Cases We Couldn’t Solve

Children — July 16, 2024 · 104 Comments

Over the last two years, we've done about a dozen deep dives on Missing 411 cases, as well as an analysis of the entire theory. We came to the surprising conclusion that most of these cases do have explanations that, while often gruesome, are entirely mundane. Aaron Hedges was detoxing, Bobby Bizup was assaulted, Kenny Veach got lost in the desert, etc…but not all of them are so simple. For this video, we selected five that not only defy all explanation, but also seem to be connected in some ways. Welcome back to The Lore Lodge…

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0:00 – What Is Missing 411?
6:55 – Jim McGrogan's "Ski Accident"
20:53 – Bart Schleyer's "Hunting Mishap"
34:10 – Fred and Dave's Not So Excellent Adventure
38:59 – Garret Bardsely's Fishing Trip
50:39 – Stacy Arras's "Kidnapping"
1:00:34 – Analysis

104 Comments

  1. Me alone at a National Park, at 2 pm, without checking the weather, or personal locator beacon, near a body of water, in an area where others have gone missing, etc

    *”Mr. Paulides, I don’t feel so good”*

    3. “I’m also of German descent, occupation is doctor, IQ of 147, didn’t bring a map of the area, did not let anyone kniw of my loaction or when I should be back, my point of sepration was an hour ago, etc”

  2. Will never understand splitting up from the group. If something happens by yourself that’s one thing, but to diverge from the perceived safety of a large group to go at it alone is a mind numbingly stupid move. Start together finish together.

    2. Several of these cases actually just have the missing person going around the corner within 100ft of the other person and disappear. One actually was a woman in Yellow Stone that just wanted to get a closer picture and her husband was just on the same path but was just a little way up higher(there was a winding path going down hill).

    4. If someone is experiencing overwhelming emotions, being around other people can make it more difficult to self-regulate. You’re right that sticking together is smarter, but if you can’t understand _why_ someone would split up, I can only assume emotions are a foreign concept for you.

    5. Me personally when I go out into the wilderness, I can see how being around a group of humans could become very taxing. Sometimes you just need to get away from your worries. There’s any number of instances where two people can become aggravated with one another over the most trivial of things.

  3. Idk if anyone mentioned it but Tatiana and Tanya are the same name in ru, Tatiana is a full form and Tanya is a shorter version you’d use when talking to a child or – in a casual setting – to someone u r already very familiar w(a friend, a relative, sometimes maybe an old acquaintance). So Tatiana is Tanya

    1. That was my thought too. Alexandra Trusova, the Olympic figure skater, is also known as Sasha Trusova, because Sasha is the diminuitive of Alexandra in ru.

  4. @ 27:23 I have to disagree with you here, I think someone’s grandmother would be about four times more effective at attempting to find their grandson.

    2. I actually had personal contact with the concerned grandma (I ran a citizen information group in the area she lived) in the Vallow/Daybell child murder case and let me tell you.. she NEVER gave up. If it wasn’t for her those monsters would have gotten away with everything.

    3. Many indigenous families and communities in Canada would agree with you as volunteer searches often find bodies of the missing which the RCMF cannot be bothered to even try looking for properly.

  5. I love how you guys are open to admitting oversight or being wrong and often actually drop revisions and have a open door policy for critique. My favorite “Pseudoscience Channel” 👌🏾

    2. ​@@deerichardz which is a bit of a surprise since he seems to have made up the Stacey Arras lens cap and that one guy that disappeared while hunting with friends being an alcoholic.

    4. @@deerichardz I think most reasonable people would be quite restrained in their public opinions on Paulides considering: A) you use “his material” in videos and B) Paulides is known to be uncharitable to people using “his content.”

    5. @@thewitchishammered Deeri doesn’t use Paulides’ work and neither does Lore Lodge unless it’s the only source or he specifically calls out that he has to use it for some reason.

  6. I think one thing that gets overlooked, or maybe just not adequately addressed, when talking about these kinds of cases, is that people just don’t act logically much of the time, especially under duress/stress/etc. We all try to explain possible behavior of these people in these situations, but the simple truth is, the vast majority of the time, other people just don’t act in a way most of us would consider logical. And that’s not even taking into account panic, anxiety, mental health issues, whatever. We try to explain behavior because we desperately need to believe we are rational creatures; we simply are not.

    There are still going to be plenty of cases that aren’t explained by this, but the truth is, we’ll never actually know what happened in most of these situations purely because we are not the person that was there.

    2. Put simply, a lot of us are idiots. And even those who are not, can easily fail to realize that we are constantly in a life or death situation in the wilderness. Ten minutes of daydreaming at work, no one even notices. Ten minutes of daydreaming while hiking, you could be utterly lost.

    3. @jeffborders2956 OMG, I know! Well put! As much as I was to go hiking as I live near Yosemite Im scared to death. lololololol ;laughing but serious!

    4. When I lived in Florida, I spent much of my time fishing. I lived in-between 2 big lakes on the East Space coast Pkwy. This was 1980 or 81. I often went deep into the woods because I loved nature. Once, I went a little too far, and found myself staring into the swamp. I felt a strange pull, to come see. Thankfully I resisted. It would have been the end of me and NO ONE would have had any idea what happened to me. I don’t know what that was. Maybe similar to being drawn to a cliffs edge.

    5. Back sometime before 1990, my grandfather had an employee go missing in Saudi Aradia. He got back from the States and checked in to company HQ, picked up the mail for the crew at the Rig he was supposed to go to and got into a company truck and left to the North, was supposed to head to an oil rig north of their base of operations to relieve another worker and drop off the mail. It was a 4 hour drive into the desert but by night fall he had yet to showed up. The next morning, my gramps called Saudi Aramco and initiated an air search and for 3 days they searched the areas to the north, east and west that he could feasibly get to with the fuel he had but found no sign of him. So they shifted to searching to the south, into the Rub’ al Khali. Groups of 3 men, 2 Americans and an Arab who spoke both English and Arabic loaded into trucks with extra fuel, rations and water where dispatched to search the south. One of the trucks ran into a camel caravan, the search party’s Arab spoke with the caravan leader and described the truck to him. He told them he saw that truck a few hours south. They found him there, dead under the company truck. At the time no one knew how or why he drove out into the Rub’ al Khali, it was a mystery until the company’s investigation turned up that he had gone to see a doctor while he was State side where he received a cancer diagnoses. Apparently, he decided to end it all but make it look like a wrongful death, like he had gotten lost in the desert so his wife could sue the company for a bunch of money. At least that’s my Gramp’s theory on what happened.

  7. With the case of the 12 year old Boy Scout Mormon, I can’t help but think that it’s a modern day Bobby Bizup. He gets close to camp and an adult counselor, probably someone he trust, brings him away, knocks him out with roofies or chloroform or something of that matter, and stashes him away until he moves him off sight and to a secondary location.

    Essentially I think that case is just a matter of a Predator father being in the group kidnapping the poor kid and nobody being wise to it because he was in the search

    4. I agree, the Mormon church is pretty infamous for covering up sexual abuse. And the Boy Scouts had a huge scandal of the same. Sadly, it seems to fit, poor kiddo:(

    5. @@CrystalRayeIk it may sound crazy if you haven’t had lots of nuanced interactions with them, but Mormons, especially in that area, are SUCH a tight knight community that they have a known history of lying about or hiding crimes/misdeeds in order to protect the members and the name of the Mormon church.

      The crime that’s covered up can vary vastly, but ex-Mormons have told me it usually has to do with church abuse scandals, highly dysfunctional families (or parents covering for their kids), and ESPECIALLY financial crimes. Basically, even if something fishy did occur, as long as they all stick to the same story, there won’t be consequences.

      I don’t claim to know what happened, I am just saying I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it ended up being some kind of foul play, whether an accident they agreed to cover up, or intentional atrocity. Also, lots of times, the system will either just take Mormons for their word because they are perceived as sincere/honest, or leave them alone because they know it’d be basically impossible to prod or put the resources into investigating further.

  8. The idea of being one of the last people to interact with someone who completely disappears is haunting. Imagining being Garret’s father or the friends Jim went skiing with (or literally in anyone who saw the people before they disappeared) is horrifying. How often do they think about how things could have ended differently if they had done something slightly different? That’s got to weigh really heavily on those people.

    1. Not the same, but me and my friend were the last people to see a kid from my highschool and his cousin before he got into a car accident and died. We lived in the same neighborhood and me and my friend didn’t really like him so we said something snarky about him and he got in an accident like 20 minutes later and died after being in the hospital for an hour. It was a very haunting experience for me and I deeply regret saying mean anything that day.

    3. My roommate was one of the last people to talk to Joleen Cummings before her disappearance and murder by her con artist coworker. And was the check out clerk for the murderer and her boyfriend in the time between the murder and when they disposed of Joleen’s car.

      He had to come home for mental health for the rest of the day when it was pointed out and the sheriff’s office reviewed the store tape with him and the managers. It really messed with his head for several days.

  10. Something else to consider, the people that aren’t acclimated to high elevations. It may not seem like a big deal, but it can absolutely kick your butt, make you irritable, and possibly disoriented if you’re really struggling with it. Olympic athletes come to the Rockies to train because of the elevation. I’ve seen at least two touring performers have to stop mid-show because the elevation was making it impossible for them to breath. One of them was Lemmy. I’m an experienced high elevation hiker and couldn’t make it halfway up an “easy” foothill hike after being at sea level for three years. So, combine extreme cold and high elevation with an inexperienced hiker/skier, and I could see them getting in trouble if they get separated from a group.

    3. Totally agree most people aren’t ready for the altitude changes and it really can cause major problems especially when you are alone.

    4. I live near the ocean and I’ll go up to my grandparents cabin and I’ll be out of breath from just walking up the stairs lmao you don’t realize how thin the air is until you need to breathe harder

    5. Nobody comes here (Colorado) to train due to the altitude. Training here confers no advantage. LIVING here for a year or more confers an advantage in the form of an increased red cell count.

  11. For Garret’s disappearance I’ve always wondered if the dad accidentally told his son he was going down the wrong turn, a quick memory lapse, so when he “corrected” Garret, he accidentally sent his son down the wrong turn. If Garret was expecting to see camp soon I can imagine his mind wandering (or concentrating on his wet feet) and by the time he realised he should have arrived, he’d walked some distance. Doesn’t explain why he wouldn’t just turn around, nor why he didn’t respond to shouting, but if they searched in the wrong direction to start the rain might have washed away evidence of him being elsewhere. Such a tragic case.

    3. @@cbphoto87it’s extremely likely. Visibility was low, audibility was high as tested. If the dad wasn’t involved, the highest probability scenarios are he was accidentally sent down the wrong turnoff and had gone far from the initial search area by the time he was attacked/fell down a hole or whatever. Nobody heard anything.

      If he was going in the direction of camp, it’s not unlikely he could have been met there or at camp by a ‘known adult’ with any number of ways of luring him away from the location and also hiding his body.

      Whatever happened to him happened to his pole and his wet shoes and socks wholesale.

    4. It’s quite likely, however I think that rescuers probably had taken this possibility into consideration during search efforts.

    5. @@abbeym7691 It’s always funny to go into the comments of these videos and see the people with murder mystery brain rot, who think this kind of outcome is even remotely likely. If you really don’t think that a 12 year old getting lost in the woods and succumbing to the elements is the most likely scenario you are living in delulu land.

  12. When I was younger, 12 or so, my family went camping in a state forest with my cousins and some of their friends. While my younger brother and I were exploring the trails with another kid, I saw my dad through the trees, gesturing angrily for me to follow him as he walked further into the woods. It was very much him, wearing his favorite shirt and his workout glasses. My brother and the kid didn’t see him, but my brother believed me. We tried not to make our dad angry when we could avoid it, but the kid wanted to go back. We watched him leave the woods and get pretty close to camp before we crossed through the trees to the trail dad was on and followed it to the end, a lakeside beach. He wasn’t anywhere.
    We started looking around to see where he could have gone when my dad, in a different shirt and his reading glasses, stormed down the trail behind us and started shouting. He’d been at camp the whole time, and was livid we’d sent that kid back alone to go down a path he hadn’t approved of ahead of time.
    Later that week, my cousin and I had to bolt up a sandy cliff-thing for a half a mile or so to escape from some weird guy who was following us, so my brother just chalked it up to me not getting a good look at the man we followed through the thick trees and actually seeing that weird stalker, but I know what I saw. Whatever we followed, it looked just like my dad. I still can’t explain it, but I’m glad we stopped going there.

    3. I was never into the strange phenomena and didn’t know missing 411 at the time but I used to go out alone into the woods in North Bend WA at night with little to no gear. I hiked snow lake (where there was a missing 411 case 1 year later) and reached the lake at Dusk. I was exploring around the lake, there were a few people here but I went to a spot where I didn’t see anyone. Suddenly down from the valley way off trail I could have sworn my best friend was calling me by my Japanese name. I yelled back in response and walked towards the call but was weirded out because he doesn’t even call me by that, I just assumed he was doing that to get my attention. I also realized he hates hiking and he wouldn’t have been there anyways. I heard my name get called again and this time it was louder and I knew I was not hallucinating. I ran out of there and for the last two miles of the hike back to my car I hiked in complete darkness. The entire event was extremely strange

  13. For Garrett’s case I always considered the option that it was someone he knew. Someone who was with them and who was considered trust worthy. Close enough to the case that they would have an alibi, someone no body would suspect, who took him.

    3. @@oldspicey6001 personally I think it was one of the men at the camp or even the older boys but one thing is sure he was most likely abducted and killed

    4. I agree. I wonder if he was meeting up with someone he knew on the trip, hence going down the “wrong” path. I bet that person killed him and hid him and his stuff.

  14. Garrets case always surprises me because I haven’t heard very much questioning of the dads story. Not saying he was involved it just seems like reasonable due diligence to consider the possibility that he was not telling the truth and harmed him somehow, especially since the initial search wasn’t done by LE but by scouts. I really hope they figure out what happened to him some day

    2. I was going to say the same thing. Not even necessarily an act committed maliciously, but an accident that someone chose to cover up. You’d assume some evidence would be found if that were the case, but perhaps it could have been overlooked because it didn’t fit the evidence that the initial story implied?
      I mean, it could have been an accident by one of the other scouts, and their father chose to cover it up 🤷‍♀️

    4. ​@@eryn2883Yes! This! What if Gareth went back to camp & found one of the leaders molesting one of the kids, or two of the leaders having sex with each other? Perhaps he was killed to cover it up, or killed by accident and then they had no choice but to cover it up!

    5. OMG people! Leave Kevin Bardsley alone! To talk like this, you obviously have no idea what the family has gone through. The family has suffered enough without having to go through this kind of talk. I’ve followed this story since Garret first went missing and that man has suffered. He has organized and taken part in searches for other missing campers/hikers in the High Uintas since he lost his son. Would you feel better if he went back to Cuberrant Lake and ended his own life? I know I wouldn’t be able to live with myself if I were in Kevin’s shoes. Also, that scenario has unfortunately been played out by another grief stricken father who lost his son in the mountains. My goodness, leave these people alone!

  15. I lived in Salt Lake City when Garret went missing. I remember hearing one theory about his vanishing that suggested he’d wandered off to fish a stream coming out of Cuberant Lake, and became disoriented. He wandered around some looking for the trail once more, only to have it start to rain. It’s theorized that he took shelter in an old mine (that area is littered with them), and fell through an open shaft.

    2. @@DC-fx4zz Its possible if its a very old mine and he fell through and lrge shaft it couldn’t be search. It might have been a very deep pit that used to have a way down when the mine was open but now there isn’t. If he did fall down a shaft its possible with the conditions of the mine they didnt bother searching or searched just near the entereance and a little into it but not where Garret could have fallen. But it is just a Theroy, it is very odd that Garret disapeared without leaving anything behind.

    5. @@problems3485 I mean yeah, they might have been able to use drones. But the mines were never thoroughly searched so we will never know what happened most likely.

  17. I’ve hiked around the mountains in Vail Valley at night. The lights of Vail are such an easy reference to figure out where you are. In fact, I have rarely gotten nervous because the lights of Vail, the highway, and even the snow grooming vehicles on the ski hills are a constant reference point. The semi-trucks are also loud and give you an audible reference point for the highway.

  18. Honestly, I can 100% see Jim just starting off, getting lost, and continuing on ‘cos “he’s on an adventure”.

    I know plenty people like that and I know they would easily bumble into some very dangerous situations without realising it.

    2. my theories are his friends killed him over there then went to the cabin and lied or maybe the phone call was for him to tell them he was going to explore and thats how he died.

  19. 23:53 I’m a son of a once adamant hunter, hunted quite a bit myself as a younger man.

    One of the absolutely most gut wrenching situations for a hunter, is knowing you fouled your shot, and you’ve caused unnecessary suffering. You are correct that it is a sign of respect.

    I’ve only done it once. Thankfully, I didn’t wound that severely. The next weekend the same deer walked out on me and I nailed my shot. It wasn’t till I collected my father and we came upon the deer that we realized….. It’s been shot twice? What? Then after a few minutes of talking it out came to the conclusion it was in fact the same deer I had missed the previous weekend.

    Only time I’ve ever done that, and I almost didn’t go back hunting after that. I can’t describe the amount of shame I felt.

    2. I think that the animals would prefer that you didn’t take their life either. I would not want to be hunted, wounded or have my life taken and no living creature would want any of this either.

    3. @@AP-qc2llAny wild animal that died during a hunt, even the botched ones, had a 1000 times better life than every animal that lived on a factory farm. If you’re anti-hunting then you’d better be a vegan or you’re an incredible hypocrite. Even if you’re a vegan I hate to inform you, but deer get eaten alive by bears, wolves, coyotes, cougars and wolverines every day. The deer that survive becoming prey get to succumb to a slow death from illness or starvation. Every animal is going to die one way or another, the deer that get shot are the lucky ones….

    4. Hunters get stereotyped as hillbilly, rednecks that have a callous disregard for nature, when in reality every hunter I’ve met is an advocate for wildlife conservation. Ironically, hunting has become more of a rich man’s activity in modern times, so the image of a trailer park boy trekking through the woods with a shotgun while chugging keystone light is far from reality.

    5. @@AP-qc2ll I would rather die swiftly than starve to death – which is the alternative unless you want to restrain or biologically control the mating practices of every wild animal via AI and ecological foresight. I don’t hunt but that’s a dumb argument, especially given how most animals are farmed – hunting is actually the most ethical way to source most meat.

  20. As a German, I think I have a pretty good idea of why Germans go missing a lot in national parks- Hiking here is really, really safe. Unless you’re talking about going up in the alps or off the beaten path, being out in the ‘wilderness’ here could give people- especially people who love to hike, and would go do that in the national parks- an unexpected confidence in their ability to tackle more challenging hikes out in the north-american wild. I grew up hiking, and before I read some books by american hikers, I would’ve probably made the same mistake coming over!

    1. as a german, i agree. also, germans are notoriously underpacking when it comes to provisions during hikes (likely because you’re never that far from a town or restaurant or supermarket no matter where you are here). hearing stories about the american wilderness with all its predators really makes me realise how safe we are over here. the most dangerous wild animal in most german regions is literally a boar. also no nutjobs with guns everywhere you look

    2. I think they mean people of German heritage, which frankly is like 30-40% of the US and kinda just means from the midwest, so it always seems kinda silly to point out especially since post ww1 most people don’t really have deep heritage or common cultural practices with Germany in the US. But that is very interesting to learn!.

    3. @@Souledex Yes it’s the most common ethnic heritage among Americans. it would be more significant to the missing 411 if those that went missing were *not* of German decent.

    4. The story of the Death Valley Germans is horrifying. They made the best decisions they could with the information they had—but they were used to a place where settlements are MUCH closer together.

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